Micheal Campion: Okay, we've waded into these waters already, but that's not a problem at all. Let's talk about time and the importance of time and the different types of time.

Bob Sheard: So time. We've already said that you don't own all the time of a consumer's life, but you can own some of the time. Nor do you want to own all the time. You don't want to be every part of a consumer's life, you just want to be the most emotional part for you. I first learned this when I was designing the brand Karrimor, which was an outdoor brand, and the time that we owned was Monday morning because that was the time when they emotionally hated leaving the outdoors to go to their jobs. So we just went out with Monday morning communication like phone in sick and we own that part of time.

Sebago, which is one of the first loafer brands designed in Maine in America, when a guy who was skippering his boat could see that he was slipping on his boat but his dog wasn't, so he looked at the pads under his dog's foot and realized that there was a kind of siping that he then put in the soul of his debt shoes. I'll have some of those. Yeah created the first deck shoe and then created one of the first penny loafers. But what they own, Sebago, is this idea of hand craftsmanship, so the idea that the time that goes into the making of their products isn't measured, it's experienced. It's not time saved but it's time spent. And that's really representative of chaironic time, which we've covered. But it's important that that chaironic time can go into building and imbuing a product with great value.

Monos, which is positioned around the Voyager archetype. Again, we positioned around chaironic time because it's the experience of the journey that's important, not the destination. And then, similarly, when we work with brands like 2XU, it's all about chronomatic time, it's all about improving your performance within measured time. So there's different elements of time there. And then, in the wider world, then Patek Philippe, that's all about legacy, is about the time after time. So there are lots of different versions of time that we can go towards, that we can own either the physical time, in a day or in a week, or the spiritual time, whether it's chaironic, experiential or time after time. But we can own different aspects of time for a brand.

Michael Campion: I guess also in the pursuit of profits, there is the desire to be greedy and to want to own all of the consumers' life and all the consumers' times. You said that that's not actually what you want, but I would imagine that the more financially driven members of a board would want to own as much as possible of that consumer lifecycle. So how do you bridge that divide when you're battling with clients?

Bob Sheard: You know, not even toilet brands want to own toilet time. They chuck a labrador in and out of their minds. Exactly. A frolicking time, playful time connected to toilet roll yeah no, you just have to be disciplined. You just can't be everything to everyone. It's about establishing a meaningful relationship with the consumer, and that means choosing your time wisely.