Michael Campion: From focus and appeal we move to the next brand protocol, which is the say do protocol. This is all about words and deeds. Bob explains to us how brands sometimes say one thing but do another.

Bob Sheard: Brands need to understand the difference between what we say and what we do. Looking at it in purely human terms, if a guy turns up at a dinner party on a Friday night and introduces himself as a cool guy, then you know he's not a cool guy, he's a bit of an idiot. If the same guy at the same dinner party doesn't introduce himself as that, doesn't dominate the conversation, waits till at least the end of the main course to have an opinion. Once he's heard everybody speak and created a cultured point of view, then you know that he's behaving in a more considered and cool way, in that way we can see the difference between what we say and what we do. So, with regard to say, do for Team Sky, the importance for them was to understand what they did, and what they did was win. But if you talk about winning, it's like having your eye on the podium during the race. It'll take you off your stride. So it's all about looking at your behaviour and how your words shape your behaviour. So, with Team Sky as a brand, the words are always about marginal gains. The effect of that was on what they did, which was win. In terms of other brands.

Michael Campion: Before we got on to other brands. Sorry, do you think there would have been a vulgarity to it in the consumer eye if they talked about winning as opposed to marginal gains, which really caught fire as a motto?

Bob Sheard: Certainly before they won anything, it would. Yeah, and then pride before the fall yeah. First British team to win the Tour de France. Then at that point, it's your choice, you have a choice to start talking about it then. But they didn't. They chose to carry on talking about marginal gains.

Michael Campion: Yeah, yeah, they kept beating that drum. Yeah, okay,

Bob Sheard: Other brands? Well, most recently, the most recent manifestation of this is Patagonia with Yvon Chouinard declaring that the business is going to go into trust and the Earth is their only shareholder, was the latest chapter in their behaviour, where they in previous years had created the most amazing archive of brand photography that was used to augment their catalogues. And in their brand photography they kind of had arrangements with National Geographic photographers who tended to take pictures of great, epic vistas with small human beings in them, and so they didn't care whether those people were wearing Patagonia product or not. Every other in the 90s and 2000s, every other brand, would ferociously make sure that the product that was in there advertising was their product, but Patagonia, what was more important for them was that the landscape, the majesty of the landscape, overwhelmed the human, and so it didn't matter to them. That was the communication they wanted to give, that nature is more important than the human, and as a consequence, they got amazing photography and you didn't even bother looking at the product, you just knew that that was a Patagonia sensibility. So those actions, the actions in art direction, the actions in photographic curation, that really puts their conviction first and in many ways their product second. Permeated through to the campaign work around, don't buy this product, which is now manifested in the corporate trust that's going to look after Patagonia, such that Patagonia says 'Earth is now our only shareholder', is an amazing example of how words have been relegated in favour of actions and deeds. That, I think, will create a long lasting legacy, not just for Patagonia but for brands that will be influenced by Patagonia.

Michael Campion: Patagonia is not the biggest, but it could be one of the most influential as people try and step into that slipstream. before Before we moved on, I wanted to go a bit deeper on the importance of conviction and the economic realities of doing the quote, unquote, right thing, the moral thing, the just thing. Often it's more expensive to be ethical. Conviction can be costly.

Bob Sheard: There are times when doing the right thing isn't the most profitable thing and it's not a sure thing that it will work. For many years, Patagonia was on the verge of bankruptcy. The thing that transformed their economic fortunes was micro down, and that's what transformed them and gave them the economic stability that enabled them to turbo charge to the position they're in now. For the first 10 years, it took a decade for Nike to turn over more than a million. So it wasn't a sure thing. Blue Ribbon Sports wasn't a sure thing. So, but they did things that were right. You know, they really focused on innovation in running. They put innovation and running culture at the heart of that company, it was a running company before it was a sports company, and there are times when just things aren't sure things. You know, in human history you read about some of the greats. They had to fight for their rights to become great. Leonardo da Vinci had to move around to get patrons that would patronize him to enable him to do the work he did. He had to move from Florence up to Milan. He had to go work for the borgias. He had then had to go work for the king of France. He had to move, you know, there to get the money to finance what he wanted to be able to do. Similarly, Michael Angelo, when he created David, it was presented to Florentine society and the Medici family in Piazza della Signoria and they thought the nose was a bit too big. So they sent him back up the ladder and said "can you just work on the nose a little bit so we can properly present it to To the throng. And he did. He went up the ladder but he just carried some chalked us with him and gradually hit his hammer, but then let some dust slip from his hands and it gave the appearance that he was modifying the nose, but he didn't. And we're left with one of the most sublime statues in art history. But it's kind of, the point is that it wasn't a sure thing and you have to do what you have to do to be able to, ultimately, it's underpinned, but everything's underpinned by economics. So these great brand stories, these great stories of art and culture, their fundamentally underpinned by getting economic patronage, and so we have to have the convictions to know that our actions will work.