Michael Campion: So every brand must have a point of authority, some reason or something that gives them credibility and authority in the marketplace. So talk to me a little bit about the importance of authority in their positioning.

Bob Sheard: Within positioning, authority is very important because it's the credible reason why you exist. It's the critical brand action that justifies your authority to speak and act within the market. It defines your compelling expertise and knowledge to be there. A very good example globally is Levi's. Levi's is the best designer in the world at designing elegant decay, at designing a product. The more you wear it, the more it reveals the character of you, what you do and your life in those jeans, and so that becomes really powerful. Their authority comes from the fact they've done that for over a century and a half. When you look at the world's oldest jean that's in the Levi's archive, it still has the biography of the miner that wore that jean on the product. You can see on the product where he placed his wallet. You can see where he placed his tools, because it's born like the Turing shroud. It's on the denim, it's revealed on the denim, and so that gives Levi's the authority to say "you may wear other jeans, but you live in Levi's, and there is no higher authority in denim than that. In terms of brands like Dalesford Organic, their authority comes from their farm, their farming practices, the husbandry of their animals to create the food that they create is what drives their authority to be the organic standard in the world today. So the compelling knowledge for them and the compelling wisdom and actions is through decades of organic innovation, pioneering and practice. It's similar with Levi's it's through a heritage of being the designers of elegant decay and the designers of character revealed through the use of their product, and they're really important things. I think one of the brands that is also globally iconic but we've also had the privilege to work on is Adidas, whose authority comes from the concept of the Corinthian spirit, the participation in sport, and it's why Adidas has many of the greatest sports teams on its books. You know Real Madrid, Bayern Munich. It's got some of the most amazing teams and the sense of them being of team sports, I think, comes into its own every four years. I still think they win every Olympics because of that sense of the Corinthian spirit aligned to the notion of the Olympian spirit and the idea of participating. And it's not all about the winning.

Michael Campion: Am I right in thinking that a large portion of influencer marketing and celebrity endorsements is all about borrowing authority? It's about borrowing credibility, and thus it's positioning by proxy. It is a way for brands to supercharge their authority in a marketplace. Isn't that fair?

Bob Sheard: Sometimes it's the opposite that's true, which is, if you overindulge in influencers, then the influencers start to define the brand. You become the sum of what the influencers say, so you need to have a counterpoint to that, to do that. But, I think it's always been a two-way street. Consumers wear brands so that those brands are a reflection of their own values, but the sum of that consumption helps define the brand. It's one of the pain in the asses about being in this job is that you can be on holiday and you could see someone in a Houdini jacket and you think they shouldn't be wearing that jacket, Or you can be on a beach and see someone in Volcom, 50-year-old guy in Volcom and think you shouldn't be wearing Volcom mate, that's not good for that brand. But you can see there's a kind of trade-off there, borrowing the credibility of the brands to enhance their own life and world. But yeah, it's always been a two-way street.

Michael Campion: Yeah, because I think again, to use examples from the Wines and Spirits world, you see David Beckham put his face on Haig Club whiskey. You see Conor McGregor attaches cult of celebrity to Proper 12 whiskey. These aren't top-of-the-range whiskies. With all due respect, they are a far better products. But the authority, the reason to believe, is coming up. But the authority is lent to the product by the celebrity, is it not?

Bob Sheard: Or diminished, or diminished depending on the eyes of the individual. So Haig will attract people to that whiskey brand, for whom David Beckham represents something that is aspirational for whiskey drinking. Now I don't see where his authority is at all in the selection of a whiskey to drink. His only virtue in that relationship is to drive awareness of Haig. He is not driving positive meaning, he's driving meaning, he's driving awareness. But I fail to see where the intersection is of the meaning of David Beckham's celebrity is and on a low tempo drink like Haig. I know they're trying to create a community and a cool gang around it, but it's still a struggle for me. I think it's a disconnect.

Michael Campion: No, absolutely. Disconnect is the word. There's a cognitive dissonance with me when I see it. I wanted to hear you explain it through the lens of positioning an authority which is good.

Bob Sheard: To be fair, they may have the numbers that disprove everything. I've just said so what Bob might not align as a brand, but we've got worldwide sales of X, in which case that's fine. That's worldwide sales of X. It's not brand building, yeah correct yeah.