Michael Campion: Alright, let's move on to the reason to believe. So tell me about how you think about the reason to believe with regards to positioning.

Bob Sheard: In positioning, the reason to believe is really your ongoing behaviour that derives credibility of the brand for consumers. It's defining your compelling source of credibility in your reason to believe as a brand. One of the brands that we work with is Innis and Gunn, which is an Edinburgh brewer and, really like some great products, it was born from almost a 'happy accident' where Dougal the master brewer was asked to brew some beer in whiskey barrels so that he could mature the taste of the whiskey barrel, so they could distill whiskey from the post-brewed barrel and change the taste of the whiskey. What actually happened is the beer that came out tasted glorious and so therefore he refined it to create what we know today as The Original by Innis and Gunn. Why do we believe in his ability to do that? One because he was a master brewer that brewed dukers in a former life, which was voted the best beer in Britain. But we believe more in his myth and his story when we consider that his grandparents were very heroic in the Second World War. His father was one of the few that landed on Tuck Pegasus Bridge at the D-Day landings and his grandmother was a dinner lady in Edinburgh and she became kind of famous throughout the area for making the most amazing recipes out of what was available in rationing and to feed the children of Edinburgh. Whilst when his father came back he became an amazing carpenter. So within there you've got the sort of heritage of recipes and the heritage of venerating wood, and then his father became a master distiller and so you've got these three points of; recipes, wood and distilling. Apply those to brewing and you end up with Innis and Gunn. So a really rich history which becomes an important reason to believe in their ability to continue to innovate flavours and recipes in beers. And so it's a great history as that are phenomenal.

So it's kind of interesting when you look at Burberry, great British brand, Thomas Burberry innovated Gabbardine. I don't know if Burberry know this, but when they found George Mallory on Everest, the cloth that he was wearing when he was potentially descending as the first man to ascend Everest was Burberry. But Burberry was also the cloth worn by female aviators. It was a cloth that was worn by the British military in the First World War. It was a proper performance fabrication of its time, but it was pioneering. It was worn by Shackleton, it was worn by Scott. So it really represented this pioneering spirit and the reason to believe in Burberry as a brand that can explore the 21st century open spaces of fashion and digital interface is because they did it in the 20th century geographically, so why not digitally? Why not in terms of fashion? And then another brand that I've got very fond of is Mac Cosmetics who're in the world of beauty. They occupy a little bit of a scientific approach where they match skin tones to tones of cosmetics, and I think that's a really important reason to believe there. So really having a reason to believe that defines your compelling credibility and a kind of behaviour that means that consumers can draw a direct line between your authority and your actions is really, really important.

Michael Campion: Yeah. So I've got two questions there. The first one there's going to be a subtlety to it. I know from having talked to people about this protocol that they sometimes struggle to differentiate it from the prior one right, which is your, which is your authority, because authority, credibility, reason to believe are sometimes used interchangeably. So if you can just short form distill for me the critical difference, the subtle difference between those two, two aspects, the authority versus the reason to believe, because I know people will struggle with this.

Bob Sheard: Authority is historic fact. Reason to believe is ongoing behavior.

Michael Campion: Perfect, done, okay, love it. Question two Burberry. Again, perhaps I'm not well embedded enough in the fashion world, but I don't think they're doing a particularly good job of communicating those things that you just expressed to me about kind of their pioneering spirit. I don't think perhaps this is ignorance. I don't think that's the reason people are going to Burberry. So is their success kind of in spite or despite, or is it despite the fact that they don't communicate this well in all their marketing communications and their brand strategy? It's just there. Would they be even more successful, I guess it's my question, if they lent into that?

Bob Sheard: Oh yeah, I'll be slightly controversial here. With Thomas Burberry, there was a fearlessness to the pioneering of fabric technology. There was a fearlessness to the pioneering Aeronauts and the pioneering explorers and climbers. In recent times there's been a fearlessness to the current creative directors approach to redefining the design cues of Burberry and there has been a fearfulness on the communication sides of that company to fully adopt Riccardo's slipstream. So you will see on product very clearly. You can see on product very expressive uses of typography and colours that has not yet carried through to their comms team. So as an outsider looking in I can see a fault line.