Michael Campion: Talk to me about the interplay between charisma and conviction, Bob, and how they help create an addictive relationship between brand and customer.

Bob Sheard: Yeah, what's important is that we design charisma into a brand and its product and conviction into a brand and its product, because that helps shapes an addictive connection. The notion of what a brand stands for is what helps us shape conviction into a product. It's the kind of fundamental principles that the brand believes in. It's really important in that it starts to give the brand some depth and some texture in terms of their values.

For example, the work we did with Converse we were all about a conviction that this brand stood for self-expression, so the Chuck Taylor was a blank canvas upon which the user could fully express themselves. That was also echoed in the work we did with Levi's, which was a product that was about authentic self-expression, so you could be your most authentic self when you were wearing Levi's, and it's a really important a brand stands for that on a kind of basic level.

I suppose Facebook in the real world stands for community and that helps deflect some of the questions about whether Facebook will stand the test of time and will be able to address the question of whether they'll be on the right side of history. They always come back with the response that they have brought people together and they stand for community, which is their kind of standard defence as to whether they will be on the right side of history. The effect that the way they do that has had on people's lives may well be cause for the alternative viewpoint, and time will tell. But it's really important that brands have a sense of conviction.

As we said earlier, Cicero said "nothing convinces like conviction". And then, as George Bush said, "nothing convinces like conviction", even if you're wrong, people follow it. In terms of charisma, charisma in a brand is very much the way a brand stands up and stands out for something in which, the same way as a personality with charisma would, they stand up and they stand out for something. And to truly understand that, you have to understand what the personal brand does not believe in, what are the fundamental principles that they don't believe in. That shapes their charisma so that they can stand up and stand out against something.

So when we built this into New Balance, for example, we knew that this was a shoe that we never paid anyone to wear it. It was a shoe that didn't live by fashion and it's a shoe that no one died creating. There were no true fashion victims with it. We knew it was an anti-fashion shoe, so we positioned that brand as being the anti-fashion brand and being against all the negative consequences that fashion creates. So that gave that brand real charisma.

In terms of Mountain Equipment, which was a brand that we positioned as a rebel craftsman brand based on the Alpinist way and the concept of Alpinism being simplicity, and fast and light when addressing a mountain challenge, then what that brought us is Mountain Equipment where you could build the charisma around that brand being the Alpinist way, which is fundamentally against complexity and it's all about being light and fast and simple. And you know other brands out there that do this very well.

I think one is Mini, and Mini very much stands against the boring and the mundane. It stands against mundanity and it stands for joyfulness and excitement. So I think you can see in Mini a high degree of charisma in that brand. So once you join those two things together by asking the question "what does my brand stand for and what does my brand stand against?" Bringing those two things together brings us both conviction and charisma, and that can really help amplify the character of a brand and really bring to life its values and its principles.

Michael Campion: You definitely want to identify with a brand that takes a strong stance, that takes a position as a consumer. That's what you want. But maybe for new brands, how do they balance that conviction? Again, if nothing convinces like conviction, I agree with you. How do we balance out the hard edges of conviction with a bit of humility? Because I think if you're a leader brand and you've been in the market for decades, you can be authoritative, you can be convincing. How do you kind of balance that tightrope as a newer brand?

Bob Sheard: As a new brand, it really boils down to the difference between what you say and what you do. It's back to the say do protocol. So as a new brand, you shape your conviction and your charisma, what you stand for and what you stand against, by your actions. So the process by which you make your products and bring them to market will define very much what you stand for and what you stand against. And as you grow and become known for that, then you can start to articulate the process and venerate the process in your communication. But it starts with actions first, communication and words second.