Bob Sheard: If the emotional effect on the consumer that you want to create is status, then you become a Leader brand, because status is a very powerful emotional territory, it means that your consumers can literally save themselves. In pure Darwinist terms - 'procreate with me. I'm a good hunter, your children won't go hungry'. It's literally about conveying conspicuous wealth. So the effect of status is delivered when your brand's place is the establishment. You are the leader of the establishment. You have arrived, your ritual is the ritual of influence and your time is the time of authority. You have rational values that orient around stability, prosperity, but protection, and they're augmented by the emotional values of keeper of the traditions. So tradition, prestige and power. What you stand for is strength and what you stand against is weakness. And we see that the leader in culture is a very potent force. It's Vito Corleone in Godfather, it's Nelson Mandela in Invictus, it's Queen Elizabeth in The Crown, it's Winston Churchill in The Darkest Hour, it's Daenerys Targaryen in Game of Thrones. All of them have narratives of admiration, of power, of authority. They're all protectors, but they're also bestowers of great generosity. In brands we see that in Leader brands such as Rolls Royce, we see in Moët and Chandon. We see in Patek Philippe, we see it in Barclays, we see in Mercedes Benz. They're all brands of destination, they're all brands that are keepers of tradition, brands of admiration, brands of power, authority, they're protectors, and they're also brands of generosity and abundance. So it's a very powerful archetype, but it's ultimately the leader of the establishment. I was going to say, if you're the leader, in your particular market.

Michael Campion: If you're representing the establishment, you're imbuing status into your consumers. Is there anywhere else to go after that? Or is it simply about maintenance once you become a Leader brand?

Bob Sheard: You can innovate the role of Leader, which shifts and changes in culture, but ultimately a Leader position becomes a defensive position. It becomes a position where you don't lose, you don't have to take risks to try and win. So it's more of a playing not to lose scenario and it's a maintenance which is tough because there are lots of challenger brands out there. One of the benefits of being a Leader, though, is people fall into your slipstream, and if you're bigger than everybody else and as they copy you, there's only one person that will win. If you've got is the one with the most resources to do the same thing better. So that's the one advantage that leaders have. The disadvantage that they have is the agility to move and shift, shape shift in order to create new space, which is what the challengers have.