Michael Campion: So at Fresh Britain, Bob, you have identified and codified 16 different brand roles. These are archetypes that, thanks to their appearance in stories, art, mythology, religion, these universal archetypes have evolved to characterize specific but universal patterns of behaviour that human beings can instinctively understand. So can you go through these 16 brand roles and archetypes with me to really get under their skin? Which one would you like me to start with? Let's start with the Rebel, please.

Bob Sheard: Okay. So you would choose the Rebel brand meaning or the Rebel archetype. If you wanted the effect that your products have on a consumer was inspiration, then you would choose the Rebel archetype. The reason you would choose that is, the Rebel is really outside the establishment and fighting to change it, and that's what's inspiring. The place of that brand is in the place of progress. The ritual of the brand is the ritual of defiance and the time of the brand is the time of change. So your brand, if you were a Rebel brand, would have three key rational values. It would be uncompromising, it would be free thinking, it would be principled and then those rational values would be supported by emotional values, of being independent, you'd be idealistic, you'd be optimistic. Your charisma would come from and your conviction would come from the facts that you stand for justice and you stand against injustice. So the reason we know Rebel is really important is that we see it in culture. We see it in William Wallace in film, we see it in John Keating in Dead Poet Society, we see it in Andy Dufresne in Shawshank Redemption. As a female interpretation of it, it's Erin Brockovich and it's Jyn Erso in Star Wars' Solo. So those guys you know, accompany the Brave heart of William Wallace and in all of those films those roles have certain narratives. They have the narratives of defiance, of change, of difference, of egality, of being on the outside and of sacrifice. How does that play into brands? Well, we know it exists hugely in brands because it's Apple. It's Apple with Think Different, it's Apple with 1984. It's Dr Martens. It's PayPal, overturning the way we pay and it's Vice, overturning the way we receive our news media. And just the same as the rebels in culture have those narratives, the rebels in brands have those narratives. They share the narratives of defiance, of agitating for change, of being different, of taking from the many and giving to the few, of being on the outside and of being unafraid, of being unafraid of the sacrifices that that takes. So that's the Rebel brand and it's a fantastic brand to work with in terms of its code. It's really enriching in terms of creativity and it's inspirational both to design for, but also to be the recipient of.

Michael Campion: It's an incredibly seductive archetype and I could see why so many brand designers would love to work with a brand that wanted to adopt that stance. I mean, if everyone's a Rebel and everyone's a challenger, then nobody is. So what's the most important component, do you think of that Rebel narrative to really nail down? It's a very good point.

Bob Sheard: All revolutions devour their own children, and when you look at Apple, I liken Apple to being like Alexander the Great. So Apple under Steve Jobs was undeniably rebel. It basically moved and it conquered different territories. Just like Alexander the Great left Macedonia, then conquered half the known world, going off to territory, off to territory until he died at the grand old age of 21. But once he died, then the generals under him, the only new one thing, and that was to maraud and conquer. They didn't know how to stay still and protect the palace, so they were always on the outside, conquering other territories. So the challenge when Steve Jobs died, and I think they've risen to the challenge, was how do we protect the palace? Because what Steve Jobs was about was marauding. He marauded from category to category, overturning the establishment in each category, whether it was computers, whether it was phones, whether it was watches, whether it was music and whether it was cartoons. Even beyond Apple, he marauded. And when he sadly died, I thought I hope this could be Alexander the Great all over again, because his generals won't know what to do over the marauder. But I think what Tim Cook has done has been miraculous, in that he's taught them how to protect the palace and in doing that, coming back to your question, the Rebel has become the Warrior. The Rebel which overturns the establishment, Apple has become the establishment and they are warriors protecting it, doing a really good job of protecting it. But there hasn't been a marauding product since Steve Jobs died. They've just been developments on existing innovations.